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It seems like the Transcendent Master debate got some great discussion going a couple days ago. I want to explain that while I may not be 100% sure that he'll stay expensive, I am much more interested in generating dialogue within the community. The price of cards is shaped by every one of us, to an extent, so by understanding eachothers points of view better, we can make more educated choices on when and what to buy and sell.
If you had to put your entire Magic collection into one card, would it be Gideon or Vengevine?
You must choose. There's no "Option C", there are no write-ins. Vote, then leave a comment and tell us why.
Gideon, because planeswalkers are really cool and Vengevine is still just a dude. A really good, really interesting dude, but a dude.Gideon is a dude and a planeswalker!
Chalk me up for Gideon. -He will see cross format play.-He kills a Baneslayer. -He's a Planeswalker. -He has stronger synergy in the decks that he would be played in.-Plus he's put Bibles in all the hotel rooms all over the country so he has the Lord on his side 🙂
Ah, it appears that Vengevine needs someone to lend it their voice!There's only one of these cards I'd consider casting an Intuition for… But seriously, Gideon is less resilient to countermagic and his effect is very similar to Elspeth (protect me). In Legacy, where Elspeth often gets paired with Smokestack, Gideon does not. And in Standard, I would imagine seeing Vengevines knocking a control player over more often than a Gideon crippling and then finishing an aggro player.
Vengevine. They'll both drop from their current values, but the vine will drop less.
Gildeon is a planeswalker, and this makes all the difference when we talk about money. Another point is the increased power of white in the game, being one of the hottest slices of the pie.
At this moment, Vengevine is probably the choice because of the fact that it is still climbing in price. Both are going to be tournament staples, and both are mythic rares, so unless a deck breaks the format with one of them, I think Vengevine will be a better investment.Seeing Gideon at 5 CMC though is a bit of a bad omen too – nothing over 4 has seen serious tournament play so far (excluding Tez in vintage). I think Gideon will stay high though due to casual and edh players wanting him, and the obvious fact that he is a planeswalker.
@starwarerElspeth is more often paired with Humility, this is where Gideon Shines. The mono white Stax list of late has favored Baneslayers or Lodestone Golem over Elspeth.Gideon Deals with a Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and stalls a Progenitus, where Elspeth tokens are susceptible to Jitte and cannot block Progen.I have more thoughts on Gideon in Legacy but I think this unpacks my first statement a bit. 🙂
Vengevine and it isn't close.
Gideon. I don't believe Vengevine will find a place in any of the current decks, including Jund. Messing up their curve to play a Vengevine in the hope that it will kill something, die, and get recurred (which will not be all that common) will not be in Jund's best interest. Gideon is a solid planeswalker, and solid planeswalkers tend to remain fairly valuable. I don't think Gideon will stay over $30 – probably drop down to $20 when all is said and done, $15 after it rotates. But I wouldn't be surprised to see Vengevine back down to $10 or $15 after the hype settles down, like Abyssal Persecutor or Lotus Cobra.
Vengevine will have a deck made around it sooner than later, the question is whether it will by necessity be full of Alara cards (BBE/Ranger of Eos) to function, and if so whether or not its clearly better or at least "as good as" Jund or UW tapout. So there's a lot of questions about just where Vengevine will end up.Gideon, OTOH, will hold his value out of inertia and sheer card power, even if he only finds a home as a 2-of in a few decks. The 5cmc *is* a big deal though, and because of it he's more of a role player than Elspeth (who works in aggro at 4cmc really well ).I think Gideon is the better card for other formats. Even with the 5cmc he's got enough punch to make it into some very specific Legacy decks. Having a card played in multiple popular formats really helps keep its value high throughout the lifetime of the card in Standard, even if it turns out to be more of a roleplayer for one or two T2 decks.So yeah, go with the Gideon. Just don't be afraid to trade it, even downward, if you can get a good exchange with someone who really wants to get it in their deck ASAP so they can practice it for Regionals.
I think Vengevine will prove to be far more useful than Gideon. In fact, casting a Vengevine, trading with an opposing creature, and playing a second creature postcombat to bring the vengevine back, has proven to be an insanely powerful play in testing. I might not be the one to find the best deck for this guy, but someone will.
How exactly does Gideon deal with Progenitus? Protection from everything means it can't be targeted, and can't be blocked, so the only relevant effect is Gideon's "force all creatures to attack", which hardly seems like "dealing with it".
@TarragonI said "stalls" Progenitus, which is better than getting punched in the face for 10.I mean, come on, give me a little credit here. I know what Protection From Everything means.
From the experience at my prerelease I can say that vengivine will stay high. He will be as hard or harder to find as a Baneslayer. We saw 1 Vengivine and 5 Gideons.
I'm voting for Gideon. White has been getting a huge push lately, and I feel like he continues the trend of excellent White planeswalkers – Ajani Goldmane, Elspeth, and Ajani Vengeant.Combine this with the fact that he's a planeswalker, making him infinitely more exciting to most casual players, I think that if he sees any respectable amount of tournament play, he's guaranteed to hold value.Since the question isn't just a matter of 'Which is better?' but rather 'Which would you put your collection into?' I think Gideon is more of a 'sure thing' and would feel safer gambling on him, rather than a simple (but very efficient) beater. Also, if this is the long-term, Shards block rotates in the fall, and without Bloodbraid Elf and Ranger of Eos, it might get a bit more difficult to consistently bring Vengevine back in Standard.
Gotta go with Gideon here. I think Vengevine has the POTENTIAL to be worth more, if he really takes off. But, Gideon is gonna be worth some dough no matter what. If he ends up being terrible, truley aweful (which he's not,) he's still not going to drop below 8 dollars, because he is a planeswalker; a planeswalker in the same color as Day of Judgement.Gideon is the safe bet here.but Vengevine is for the betting man. I can't imagine any deck needing 4 Gideons. Does anyone need 3 even? But if vengevine is the man, you'll be able to run a playset.
Gideon.He's a _planeswalker_. Simply being a planeswalker kept O.G. Sarkhan Vol at $30 for way, way longer than he deserved to be.
Vangevine, definetly Vangevine. It costs 5 mana less for the God's sake. Five mana IS THE DIFFERENCE
First of all i love all the discussion. I'm really happy to see that people are enjoying the more frequent, interactive style. I'm having more fun writing it too, so keep the discussions going.My take on the issue -Gideon, but not because I agree with the price. Gideon would have to be unplayably bad to ever drop below 10 bucks. That's not going to happen. He's very, very good. The main question is how UW control and White Weenie decks use him. Naya might be able to play him too. The point is, he's a big splashy effect, has the "Top Dog" pedgree, which is hard to shake, and he's a Planeswalker. Thus, he'll probably stay well above 20.I like Vengevine more, because as my friend Paul loves to remind me, the concept of not turning guys sideways frankly appalls me. However, people have set expectations for this card, and if it doesn't automatically fit into Jund without any work, people will get disappointed. There are decks that can use this card much better than Jund. However, because it's not as iconic as Gideon nor as "big" of an effect, it's price is not sacred (as Gideon's seems to be).Thus, I am placing my vote for Gideon, even though I don't believe he's a $40 card.
Gonna have to throw my vote in for Gideon. He has huge synergy with the other planeswalkers in that he protects them and he lets you set up advantageous blocks without worrying about taking damage to the face. In U/W, if he can go on the attack, Elspeth can lift him for 9/9 flying, and then Jace can bounce him (creature now!) and you can re-cast him to force attacks or kill their tapped creature.Vengevine is the Lotus Cobra of this set. Not wholly over-hyped, certainly powerful, but fits into fewer decks than people realize. GG is a huge sticking point, and Jund simply doesn't have room for Vengevine. Eldrazi Green is one of the few decks with sheer creature mass and card-draw that could actually play Vengevine. In W/G, do you really want to be holding back the weenies rather than beating down, just to get Vengevine back?Watch Gideon retain value on Planeswalkerness alone, while Vengevine slowly declines as people realize *casting* 2 creatures in the same turn late-game isn't that common, and 2GG is harder to splash than they want it to be.
I'm not sure about which will be better in the end because I do love Vengevine, but Gideon will surely stay at a higher value because it is a Planeswalker.
Gideon is like a tool. Your opponent plays some bomb agro creature, he effectively shuts it off as a 6/6 blocker. If he plays some 2/2 with a weird effect like sower of temptation its dead and you get back your bomb creature. He deals with threats and produces one at the same time. All of your opponents little caster creatures are vulnerable while Gideon shrugs off the hardest hits. He can kill the new muldaya elves too if they tap for accel and if my understanding is correct he can kill vengivine if the plant attacks. Just use -2 when he taps him. And no there is no problem in killing vengivine early. Most people by turns 4-8 have 1 or 2 creatures and maybe 2 or 3 spells in hand. If your playing the plant you need more creatures which cripples your deck since you have to build around of the plant to effectively make it a successful threat. Past turn 8 and well inless there stacking cards in there hand they probably wont be bringing him back. Most decks I've seen so far that would use the plant would rather play something besides 2 1/1's or 2/2's turn 9 to get a 4/3 back…Also mono white gets omens, PtE, Gideon, Espereth, and if your UB you get jace 2.0 and manlands which provides a win condition Ultimately venge is a threat you build around, but is a solid threat if you can pop him early and sustain him.Gideon is massive wall that shuts them down so you can get moving, against RDW I don't know how it will fair because they usually try to kill you by turn 4 and this is 5 cmc… And there will be lost of RDW since it counters Jund… So if you survive to pop this you win. I'de say run 3 in a deck to be safe but I bet you could make it with 2.As for prices I can see vengi dropping to 8 bucks and Gideon becoming a Jace 2.0 (50$) before droppimg to 35$.
Vengevine without a doubt. Having played it in Jund now and Naya I can say it is crazy good.the real base reason though is simple. Vengevine goes in as a 4 of in any deck that plays green and has an aggressive strategy. Gideon only goes into control decks, and maybe as a 2 or 3 of. Vengevine will have deeper penetration.
@keenan
*quote*
Gideon is like a tool. Your opponent plays some bomb agro creature, he effectively shuts it off as a 6/6 blocker.
*stopquote*
No, he does not block. Planeswalker abilities are used as a sorcery. not instant.