Comments on: The Case for Point Removal in Commander https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Wed, 01 Oct 2014 18:30:27 +0000 hourly 1 By: Tyson Witry https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-181551 Wed, 01 Oct 2014 18:30:27 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-181551 Excellent goods from you, man. I’ve understand your stuff previous to and you are just extremely magnificent. I actually like what you’ve acquired here, certainly like what you’re stating and the way in which you say it. You make it enjoyable and you still care for to keep it wise. I cant wait to read much more from you. This is really a terrific website.

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By: @JulesRobins https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-15130 Mon, 02 May 2011 22:42:40 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-15130 In reply to Mose Englin.

Glad to hear it! Thanks for reading.

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By: Mose Englin https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-15061 Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:12:38 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-15061 Very good shit! I enjoy this web site.

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By: Jules Robins https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14433 Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:49:46 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14433 @Paul: If you read the article more closely, you’ll see that I’m advocating running fewer sweepers, not more. On Forking Living Death, this is a play that nobody’s deck makes in my playgroup, and has a lot of different outcomes depending upon which creatures are involved, but it’s just an example. If that move comes up too often in your playgroup, I’d recommend anything non-repetitive and high impact.

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By: Paul https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14398 Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:05:41 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14398 No offense but I disagree with this article in many many ways. Sweepers are generally not as good as targeting removal. I was under this same impression when I first began playing EDH, but now I've come to realize that sweepers do nothing more than clear everything. Often times, a single removal spell followed by an attack and forced chump blocking is significantly more effect than sweeping the board. You forget, it seems, that creatures can also kill creatures. While sweepers are expensive, they are even more expensive when you kill your own dudes. Sure if you run a no creature deck, you won't worry about wrathing your own creatures, but to me that deck sounds totally unfun.
And by the way, Forking a Living Death does not sound like fun, since I've seen it too many times.
In general, please consider your strategies before writing about them. I really don't want to see another noob deck with 20 wraths in it.

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By: Andi https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14381 Sat, 16 Apr 2011 10:07:22 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14381 @Lance: i made very good experience with my monoblue Thada/Memnarch steel-your-stuff-deck against black decks. You draw tons of cards, play hard to handle artifacts/enchantments and a few counterspells against their big mana spells are quite effective.
Also big green hard to kill monsters (i also have an Azusa deck) could work.
Although i haven't tried it, i know from duels that red burn can be good against black, i think some goblin-tribe highlander could be really nasty 🙂
greetings.

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By: Jules Robins https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14366 Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:39:55 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14366 Thanks for writing in.
@Lance: The above suggestions will all be effective, but if your goal is specifically to make the most fun game for everyone, you should recognize that your friend enjoys removal. You can try convincing him that you enjoy other things and to compromise, but if that doesn't work I still wouldn't just stuff in a whole lot of protection from black creatures because that invalidates his good time. Instead I'd recommend a route that leaves his removal useful, but lets you win through it, like running a lot of artifacts and enchantments or Master Transmuter-esque cards. You want your deck to be stronger against his removal, but not to ignore it entirely.

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By: @hawtgnutek https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14358 Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:03:36 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14358 In reply to Lance.

It would help to know what colors you plan to play to give you specific cards to help with mono black.

Sean has a great list here. The article above with spot removal (Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Condemn, Unsummon, Rend Flesh, etc) seem like great places to start. If he is crushing you with the general, then find ways to put his general in the deck. Hinder is probably my favorite way to do this.

Akroma's Memorial is an artifact that, among other things, will give all of your creatures pro-black.

Black has a host of nasty enchantments that can really mess with the board. Mass removal of enchantments works really well when one player goes over board with enchantments. Primeval Light is a card that will suite you well.

If he ISN'T running Phage the Untouchable, try Telemin Performance. It mills their deck until they hit a creature card and then that creature comes into play under your control. 12 is really great odds you'll hit at least 10 cards. This plus Relic of Progenitus will give you some great mill/graveyard removal.

The other thing to do in this situation is to form a play group that doesn't involve that person. If they are so dominate that they cause people not to want to play, exclude them from your games. After awhile, they will change decks and hopefully they will learn how to be a productive member of the community.

If you are looking for more help just look me up on twitter @hawtgnutek . Best on ya!

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By: Sean https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14355 Fri, 15 Apr 2011 12:42:05 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14355 Hey Lance, what sort of cards are the worst? Seems like a mono black deck might abuse things like Grave Pact or Abyss. It might play lands like Cabal Coffers, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and Vesuva (for that second Coffers).

Probably the worst card I can think of that a deck like that would run would be Death Cloud. No fun at all. Maybe mass discard as well.

So, try some things like this:

First, spot land removal. Wasteland may be expensive, but Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge are cheap, and you can tutor them all up with Tolaria West or Expedition Map. Pack them so the mana doesn't get out of hand.

Flashback spells are great, like Ray of Revelation, to take care of things like Grave Pact or the like. Additionally, War Priest of Thune and Duergar Hedge-Mage are awesome.

Finally, if there's one permanent type that will give a black player headaches all day long, it's enchantments. From Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, or even just Mobilization, you're looking at some difficult to deal with protection. Asceticism and Privileged Position will give his targeted "answers" nothing to target.

As far as threats, look for things that are resilient and give you value even if they are dealt with quickly. Additionally, protection from black is pretty sweet, especially on cards like Akroma, Angel of Wrath.

Fantastically, there's an ENCHANTMENT (ding!) that gives ALL creatures protection from black. You're sure to gain some allies against this guy with that card. It's called Absolute Grace. Watch him squirm! He can't even target his own guys. Non-creature artifacts have a history of causing black mages grief, too. Akroma's Memorial fits the bill AND gives your creatures haste, which is a great way for them to have some fun before the Damnations and Living Deaths take care of them.

Auriok Champion and Chameleon Colossus are pretty sweet, too (and they would be even without pro-black). Devout Lightcaster does two things black doesn't like: laugh at Doom Blade and exile their stuff! Mirran Crusader's double strike is awesome with equips, and as a bonus he's pretty cool agains elves, too!

Speaking of which, there are two excellent (if pricey; hopefully you have a copy or two in your collection) equipments with protection from black as a perk, but certainly not the main point: Sword of Feast and Famine, and Sword of Light and Shadow. The latter, combined with Sun Titan is _stupid-hard_ to get rid of. Kill the sword? Oh, look, it costs 3! Kill the titan? Something else swings in (Soltari Monk? Stonecloaker?) and brings him back to your hand for more.

Stonecloaker and his big brother Dust Elemental are pretty sweet insurance against removal, too.

If blue or green is more your thing, try Master Transmuter (now you see it, now you don't!) or if Green is better, Great Sable Stag and Whirling Dirvish.

Also, check this sweet combo: Karmic Guide plus Cloudstone Curio! You'll get a creature back every turn for 5 mana, and return your Karmic Guide to your hand where it will survive most things Black can cook up.

Finally, punish swamps! Crusading Knight will put the hurt on quickly. Karma, as they say, is a b*tch. So is Kormus Bell plus pyroclasm, or Roots of Life!

Go old-school when color hate was cool. Lifeforce is an answer to all sorts of swamp-flavored problems. Heck, so is Nightsoil, to some extent (since it hates on creatures in graveyards, but that's less of an issue if your "friend's" deck is light on critters.

Hope that helps!

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By: Lance https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/04/the-case-for-point-removal-in-commander/#comment-14343 Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:25:34 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=12223#comment-14343 A fellow at my casual table runs a very oppressive mono black control deck with korlash heir to blackblade as his general. It runs around 12 creatures and the rest are "answers" and land. I have tried all i can to build a deck for me and my wife to at least stand a chance of winning but to no avail. Any suggestions on good ways to control black? my wife wont even play anymore because it is always the same he wins we lose its very boring. thanks for your time

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