I’ll definitaly agree that there’s differences between the decks, but I’m guessing Thing is just bad in both. I loved the card when I saw the spoiler and I do hope it becomes a staple in Modern, but I just can’t behind using it as a regular beat down plan in infect.

I’m no expert either, but my main issue with it is that it will get to 1 counters at some point and from there you’re locked into not being able to pump your infect creatures. IF Twin had still been a deck it’d have a lot more going for it I think, since the bounce vs combo would be nice and being bolt proof is extremely relevant there. But UR without a splash isn’t exactly something you’ll run into that often these days, so they’ll still have removal to deal with it. I’d just add more cards to protect the “combo”. I’m thinking that everytime you see this card in your hand you’re probably hating yourself because it isn’t another card. I.e. Spellskite.

These are all fair points. I’m no expert on Infect, but I can clarify somewhat the differences I see between its game plan and Delver’s.

I think the main difference is that Infect intends to one-shot kill in a non-zero number of games. Pump spells plus creature IS Plan A, we’ve just changed the creature. When Delver flips a Thing, one of two things is necessarily true: either the opponent’s life total is relatively high, because we haven’t been beating them down, or we have other creatures that get bounced. Either way the Thing probably isn’t lethal. With Infect it’s a different story. I can realistically expect to kill my opponent the turn I flip Thing, even from 20 life.

The second difference is that as a linear combo deck, Infect is a little easier to attack. (Yes, I realize it’s very resilient, and that may be the reason why Thing is ultimately unnecessary.) The theory is that if people are bringing in things like Night of Souls’ Betrayal you can get around it. In contrast there really isn’t any “knock-out” card against Delver.

That’s all just theory, though. Empirical data trumps that, and it may be that Infect just doesn’t need or want a Plan B.

If you look at coverage in his game against Juliano you’ll notice that he actually has Juliano dead with Infect damage by just attacking with all of his creatures. He can protect one of them and be 100% sure to win even against two removal spells. But hey, he can’t, because Thing is on 1 counter and any spell he casts will flip it. Yes, he won that game, but that was not because he had that THING, it was because the Jund player got stuck on 3 lands. He almost lost it because of some THING he brought in from his SB plus his horrible punt against Night of the Souls Betrayal when he taps out against Slaughter Pact.

“The fact that the remove-a-counter trigger is mandatory makes things especially awkward, as you might inadvertently trigger your Thing when you’re trying to protect one of your other threats, remove a blocker, or cantrip into more business.”

You say this when talking about Thing in Delver, and then proceeds to mention it as a positive thing when it happens in Infect, that basically only have pump spells to trigger it. So to trigger it you most likely have to have pumped something and done damage. This someTHING isn’t Thing in the Ice, it’s an infect creature. So you’re killing them with infect and then all of a sudden THINGk it’s a good idea to just kill them with regular damage, because, hey you HAVE to. You can’t attack and pump without flipping it. People has run Geist in the SB to switch it up in the past, which of course requires a white splash, but it seems vastly superior if you want to go for regular damage and it will never accidently cost you the game because you can’t cast spells without bouncing your own creatures. But like Roland said it’s just not clear if it’s any good to divert from plan A to begin with.

If Thing in the Ice had anyTHING to do with his good record in that tournament I’ll bet my whole collection on it being a huge fluke.

*huffs and puffs*

Ah, of course you’re right. You can also turn it on with Thought-Knot Seer.

Wasteland Strangler in E&T, on the other hand, is a card I can strongly vouch for. It really helps address a weakness of traditional Modern D&T (interacting with creatures), and it lets you pull tricks like plucking an Ancestral Vision off suspend or mining previously used Paths for value. All around good stuff (though it is worth noting that you do need a target once you choose to process – I like the idea of bringing in a Spellskite off the board when facing creature-light decks for that very purpose).

Open the Armory looks spicy, and I think that Bogles has the flex slots to try it. I don’t know if it will stick (given that that I don’t really play Bogles), but it at least looks interesting on paper. Last but not least, Zur looks fun, but it just takes too long to get going.