Comments on: Considering Control’s Conundrum https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:06:49 +0000 hourly 1 By: Jordan Corgatelli https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127220 Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:06:49 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127220 here is my current draw-go control, with hard answers foe everything.

1 Blessed Alliance
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Myth Realized
3 Thought Scour
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Logic Knot
4 Path to Exile
4 Think Twice
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
3 Celestial Colonnade

1 Cryptic Command
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Spell Snare
3 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Surgical Extraction

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By: RJ Sims https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127219 Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:20:24 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127219 In reply to David Ernenwein.

Give him a break guys. He did say he came up with it loosely from what he could remember other peoples lists looking like.

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By: Care Serene https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127218 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 00:25:12 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127218 First off, I really enjoy your breakdown pieces like this. If I don’t leave with new knowledge, I usually have new ideas about the metagame. UW control in Modern has been my project since Modern’s beginnings, and in particular since Eldrazi Winter. I agree with most of your points, most particularly that Control is viable, and must have broad answers and a handful of key bombs to close out with (preferably castable turn after turn once you “turn the corner” with a wrath or similar). Personal preference plays a huge role in choosing certain number of cards, but something I have found for a deck like this is that Mana Leak is very weak, and you certainly don’t need quite as many spot removal spells.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/480810#paper

Is my most recent take, and while some choices necessarily appear odd or slow for Modern, they have performed very well in a well balanced shell. Secure the Wastes is a serious contender for control MVP, being able to block early and Snap back later for a win con. Blessed Alliance has put UW on the map versus Infect, and improved the main deck mu vs burn of all flavours. I have beaten Tron by playing an attrition game, which I never thought possible. Dodging Ulamog is important though.

Thank you for your efforts to adjust the misconception that Modern is not a format that control can thrive in.

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127217 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 20:36:41 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127217 In reply to Zach Stackhouse.

You are correct, and their slide down the power charts reflects this weakness. I’ve explained my position of Jeskai a lot, but I think Scapeshift is a more instructive example. In a world dominated by Twin Scapeshift was the combo deck you wanted and was able to play the control roll very well, but the format has sped up and left it behind. It cannot play a true control role anymore, it doesn’t have the space, and the kill is too slow to keep up with the format. Trying to be a combo/control deck is much harder now than it used to be, so I think you should abandon the combo part and focus on control.

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127216 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 20:32:36 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127216 In reply to Roland F. Rivera Santiago.

This is as close to the lists that I’ve lost to as I could get. I knew the cards that they played and the land count, I had to fill in the gaps from there.

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127215 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 20:30:49 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127215 In reply to Darcy Hartwick.

It’s not really rolling dice, it’s playing the odds. You’re supposing that there is an equal chance to hit any archetype in a given tournament. I’m saying that there isn’t, the odds of hitting aggressive decks and only aggressive decks is very high. As a consequence you can afford to cede some game one percentage to those decks that you’re unlikely to see in order to maximize your win percentage against the aggressive decks you are guaranteed to hit.

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By: Zach Stackhouse https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127214 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 14:29:36 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127214 In reply to João Costa.

If Scapeshift and Jeskai Nahiri were that good the results would show at high level events. Reality is, Nahiri is at best a turn 6 win assuming nothing disrupts her accumulating loyalty. The deck abandons boardwipes in favor of lightning bolt, helix, occasionally electrolyze and snapcasters to flash those back. I don’t understand either why there is a lack of verdicts or even anger of the gods. Scapeshift’s problem is that its wincon relies on mountains, and the more you expand the manabase to handle for or five colors the more you dilute its primary win condition. The reason GR ramp decks have been thriving where control scapeshift is losing meta shares, well one reason, is that it always has enough mountains to win, and that includes versions that run a couple copies of scapeshift for non-creature wins.

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By: Tommy Hoff Hansen https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127213 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 13:01:12 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127213 I’ve got this control deck that wins first game at 70% or more against all tier 1 decks (Affinity, Burn, Death’s zoo Dredge, Infect, Bant eldrazi) except for jund which It beats at 55%

The overall tactic is to slow the game down to a crawl and then slowly beat the opponent 1-2 damage at the time for the rest of the game.

It’s resistant to a lot of tier 2 decks as well and probably beats more than half of the tier 3.

It follows all the principles of traditional control, by removing threats, and winning with just a few life left at the end.

http://www.mtgvault.com/wickeddarkman/decks/zombiebridge-v6-deadward-2/

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By: João Costa https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127212 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 01:17:31 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127212 Short version; nice article.

Long Version
In understand where you are coming about the state of control in Modern and Magic as a whole. Altough i can understand the part about preparing for the aggressive decks and leaving the sideboard to compensate for the weaknesses. However…

You are ignoring completely the fact that we have both a Control, and a tapout Control deck in Modern: Jeskai Nahiri and BTL Scapeshift. And it actually plays the way sucessful control decks (in most formats) do: a quick win condition. Jeskai Nahiri is a consistent control shell (i strongly disagree with the “glorified burn deck” statement), and the “soft answers” are precisely what allows it to get ahead of the major contenders right now: Dredge and Infect. Burn, Affinity and Death Shadown should be considered as well wonderfull matchups for Jeskai.

Scapeshift doesn’t have that advantage (it has a bad matchup vs Infect, for instance), but we can easilly compensate for that as well, by simply tunning the colors. I’ive been testing a 5c BTL version with Lingering Souls and it’s been doing wonders when i get it. With L. souls, It’s hard to lose vs infect, almost impossible to lose to Affinity, and Burn can easilly be compensate with Pulse of Murasa, Timely, or Blessed alliance (double duty for Infect as well).

I understand you point, but results, and i’m reminded of the las WMCQ season proved otherwise: control shells have a certain degree of sucess when packing Combo kills. Thopter Combo and Scapeshift each won my country’s two WMCQ (Portugal). Scapeshift algo brought at least one more in Japan. And i do remember a France WMCQ with UW Tron top8’d. Seems low in numbers? Well, control decks ARE low in numbers currently, so it really can’t be helped that we have so few examples.

Last GP, we had Grixis Control, but also Jeskai. And sure, non of them had the “combo kill” that i’m mentioning. But the enviroment was also assaulted by unfair decks, that lose to themselves and lose gas pretty easilly if answered properly early (Infect and Dredge), so it actually makes sense to pack those soft answers.

I disagree with you, in terms that we do not need to shoft entirely to those type of decks. BUt i agree that they are A viable route, just not THE viable route 😉

PS: counterspell wouldn’t fix Modern indeed. We need a Pyschatog and Orim’s Chant reprint to see Control strong and not oppressive again. (and Psychatog would never fit in Dredge without the penalty of making the deck a lot slower in case you try to argue that).

Just my 2 (long) cents

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By: João Costa https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127211 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 01:03:17 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127211 In reply to wpgstevo.

I would consider Sacred Mesa as a win con way before Myth Realized. It’s a better tool when from behind, for ir creates all-purpose blockers, and It’s not mana intensive as well.

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By: Steven de Groot https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127210 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 00:28:30 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127210 In reply to Roland F. Rivera Santiago.

Agreed, 4 colonnades is too many for the list, and 23 lands is also a bit low for 6 cmc elspeth. Likewise, staying at 4 ghost quarter when you get down to 23 lands is a bit suspect. The list seems a bit raw and untested imo.

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By: Steven de Groot https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127209 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 00:25:57 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127209 In reply to wpgstevo.

This is my UW Control list. I think it accomplishes what you wanted to do while leaving the combo/ramp matchups much more intact.

4 Myth Realized
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Secure the Wastes

4 Serum Visions
2 Ancestral Vision
1 Gitaxian Probe

4 Path to Exile
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Detention Sphere
3 Supreme Verdict

2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
1 Logic Knot
2 Negate
4 Cryptic Command

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Mystic Gate
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter

SB: 2 Summary Dismissal
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Shadow of Doubt
SB: 1 Hallowed Moonlight
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Celestial Purge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Fragmentize
SB: 1 Dispel

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By: Steven de Groot https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127208 Wed, 09 Nov 2016 00:18:43 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127208 In reply to Darcy Hartwick.

Darcy, is that comment directed at me or David Ernenwein? It reads like it’s addressing the article but threaded to my comment.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127207 Tue, 08 Nov 2016 23:28:40 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127207 Pre-boarding against aggression definitely seems like the way to go in Modern, and I’m glad that you’ve taken to banging this drum, David. That said, the list you noted is going to have a whale of a time casting Elspeth on curve with 23 lands (4 of which enter tapped). Ancestral Vision also strikes me as swingy, as it’s a great card in your opener but not so much at other times (not to mention the obvious tension with Colonnades). However, these are all quibbles, and the general shape of the deck looks like other successful control decks I have seen.

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By: Darcy Hartwick https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127206 Tue, 08 Nov 2016 21:56:20 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127206 In reply to wpgstevo.

I mean its an interesting notion I guess but I dont think you’re going to do very well by just throwing in the towel against every non-aggro creature deck. Rolling the dice to just not hit tron valakut dredge or something like ad naus or lantern? Isnt this the definition of a meta deck?

Also im not convinced on redefining control – its always meant a deck where once you turn a corner it no longer matters what your opponent does because you have answers to everything, and you can win at your leisure.

Defining control as a deck thats mostly answers and a few threats would include all kinds of snapcaster decks and probably jund frankly. Its 4 goyfs some manlands and kalitas scooze the rest is answers.

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By: Jacob Kellogg https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127205 Tue, 08 Nov 2016 21:07:55 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127205 In reply to wpgstevo.

Oooooh, I think I like that card! Thanks for the tip!

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By: wpgstevo https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/11/considering-controls-conundrum/#comment-2127204 Tue, 08 Nov 2016 17:47:36 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=12180#comment-2127204 Interesting list for UW control. I’ve played a similar style of UW control since Myth Realized came out. The deck you posted really benefits from running Myth Realized over the elspeths. Elspeth is too slow for the maindeck since you can’t really tap out against most of the field in modern. At best, elspeth is a card for the SB in your jund/abzan/bant eldrazi matchups.

Myth realized is the card everyone trying to play control is overlooking imo. The key here is that control really can’t afford to tap more than a single mana to put a threat into play at sorcery speed, which is why it is so good. Huge ceiling that survives your own Verdict to attack the same turn for a bare minimum of tempo investment. Myth realized is usually a very fast clock by the time the board is stable.

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